Another Blog from UK Partnerships for Christ (www.upfc.org.uk)

Jehovah’s Organisation: The Grand Illusion by Jason Wright

watchtower-hierarchy-organi

Jehovah’s Organization: The Grand illusion

A study of “Organization” as it relates to the Watchtower Society and and the Church by Jason Wright

 

This essay will begin by defining the word “organization” as it relates to the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society (WBTS), and the Christian Church. The questions raised include: Do the scriptures reveal any organized systems of worship? If yes, then what was the purpose of such organization and did it constitute a theocracy? If a theocracy once existed do Christians still live under a theocracy? What exactly does the New Testament reveal concerning Christian worship and practice and does a theocratic blueprint still exist? If not, why not?

Whether expressed in terms of ecclesiastical systems, Church government, elders, bishops or a small gathering in a home, “organization” is a complex and often divisive topic; therefore this essay can only scrape the surface of such a vast subject. That being said, an honest study of organizational concepts within the biblical revelation will act as a healing balm to those spiritually damaged by the WBTS. Indeed, I pray that a candid examination of the facts will provide scriptural reassurance to all Christians who are suspicious of organizational structures within Christendom.

Let us begin with “organization” as it relates to the WBTS. Much has already been written on whether or not Jehovah has an earthly organization, therefore this essay will not go over that ground.[1] Instead let us consider how the word “organization” for many Jehovah’s witnesses gives calm assurance of Jehovah’s protection while for former Jehovah’s Witnesses “organization” is a ‘dirty’ word, an oppressive term, reminding them of a time in their lives when they gave abject allegiance to the WBTS. I remember my own mindless acceptance of whatever the society proposed whether through a watchtower article, new literature or scripted talk. As a Jehovah’s Witness you simply did as you were told. You obeyed the “organization” – but why?

The answer is a simple one. In sincerity and honesty the active Witness believes that the Jehovah God expresses himself, providing ‘food at the proper time’ through the structure known as the WBTS – otherwise affectionately called the “organization” or “society”. According to Witness theology God chose the “society” in 1919 to be his channel of communication to humankind.[2] By accepting this claim, a Witness comes under the control of the society. To a Witness, the WBTS is unquestionably accepted as God’s mouthpiece through which “truth” is disseminated. The corollary between God and the organization forms a cohesive bond in the mind of the active Witness. Hence Jehovah’s Witnesses become “captives of a concept”[3] in that they cannot separate Jehovah from the WBTS; in the mind of a Witness the two are one of the same. This illusion is further compounded by the acceptance of a self-appointed group of men known as the “the Governing body” or “faithful slave”. These men have total ecclesiastical authority over the organization and operate with god-like superiority over all practicing Witnesses. The Governing body is therefore synonymous with the concept of God’s organization. Herein we have our first definition of organization as it relates to the WBTS.

Interestingly, many active Witnesses view such control in a positive light. Jehovah is seen as providing safety and purpose within the boundary of the “organization”. Sociologist Andrew Holden comments on this phenomenon:

“When Russell founded the Watchtower Society…from it’s inception, the society was indisputably sectarian – it was small, it was intense, it claimed monopoly over truth; and, consequently, its members felt exclusive…the rational-authoritarian nature of the movement seems to produce both the conformity and the strong feeling of unity that enable it (the organization) to function” [4]

Please note that the WBTS from its “inception” was sectarian, in that Russell was opposed to institutional Churches, which he claimed had apostatized from scripture. Despite this, many restorationist/millennialist groups which were founded in the 1800’s coalesced around a strong personality and regular newsletter/magazine. Thus although these groups were generally anti-organizational they were actually organized around a man and his publication! As we shall see later, a rejection of Church “organizations” is not necessarily corollary to scripture.

Let us try and understand why some people become Jehovah’s Witnesses and subsequently submit to totalitarian rule. Firstly, our modern/post-modern world can be a very difficult place in which to live. Our Western world view promulgates an individualist way of life wherein nothing is fixed, everything is uncertain and absolutes have been replaced by relative truth; this world view cries ‘autonomy is the only rule’. However the holy maxim “empower yourself” is not necessarily what every human craves. For many people the modern/postmodern metanarrative offers no hope. This can lead to nihilism wherein people find themselves disconnected from society, lacking self-worth, and generally unhappy. Not satisfied with the status quo, spiritually hungry people are ripe for Watchtower conversion.

Oftentimes it is the natural human yearning to ‘find a home’ that attracts a person to the organization. Within the Watchtower matrix an individual or family can find ‘belonging’. The comradery of “Jehovah’s Witnesses” can at first act as an antidote to the hopelessness of the outside world. Consequently individuals who join the WBTS find its unique metanarrative reassuringly safe, a place of refuge from an otherwise inhospitable world. Those drawn to the society often express gratitude to the “organization” for providing them with an “identity”. Hope of life in paradise and the assurance that “dead” loved ones will be raised to life on earth are heartwarming propositions for new members. In truth the society becomes the individual’s savior and guardian, embodying faith and hope. With this kind of power the “organization” arbitrarily changes doctrine as it sees fit. Hermeneutically the society’s primary doctrines form interdependent structures which serve and reinforce each other. Such interplay relies heavily on the necessity of logic. Try and follow the following script that employs WT doctrine and logic:

There is no hell, because death is annihilation.

But if that is so,

Jesus cannot be God, because Jesus died, and God cannot be annihilated.

Therefore the Trinity is false. But if that is so,

The Holy Spirit must not be a divine person.

Moreover, if Jesus was annihilated, there is no reason to expect that his body would be raised from the dead.

Thus we may conclude that Jesus was raised as a spirit.

But this implies that Jesus will not return physically to the earth.

Therefore, his second advent will be a spiritual presence rather than a physical return.

This allows his second presence to be understood to be happening at this time, unseen except to those who have spiritual insight.

Moreover, if Jesus is a spirit and is to remain forever in heaven, and yet the Bible teaches both that there will be a bodily resurrection and that some will live with Christ and share his nature, that implies that there will be two classes of the redeemed – an early class and a heavenly class.[5]

From this short excursion into Watchtower logic and circular reasoning you can see how these self-correcting and self-justifying doctrines provide Jehovah’s Witnesses with a logically orientated method of defending their faith. While the Bible is used to provide proof, it is the overall system itself that bolsters confidence in the metanarrative. In this way the “organization” becomes an absolute authority on all matters of faith and practice, leading the Witness to conclude, ‘why look elsewhere? No other “organization” has the truth!’

In such a construct Jesus is viewed only in relative terms of functionality and while imperative is still only part of Jehovah’s grand plan. By blurring Jesus’ mediatory role and in turn exalting the earthly organization to all intents and purposes, the organization is itself deified. This is underscored by the regular use of the word “organization” in Watchtower literature. For example “organization” as it relates to the WBTS was used 16,789.00 times in the 2006 CD edition of the Watchtower Library[6]. This repetition reinforces the concept that Jehovah and his earthly organization are one of the same. I submit to you that Watchtower adherents unknowingly worship the society as the embodiment of Jehovah himself. Indeed members are so reliant on the “organization” that a Witness could not function without it. Testimonies of former Jehovah’s Witnesses confirm the difficulty of deprogramming and fitting back into society.

Sadly Jehovah’s Witnesses that leave the organization often fail to adequately address the question of “Jehovah’s organization” and the credibility of its doctrines. Consequently many who leave the “Organization” subconsciously remain Witnesses and thus continue to play second fiddle to the society and its doctrines. A person may have been inactive for decades and yet still be held captive to Watchtower concepts resulting in hidden guilt and despair. In my own journey out of the Watchtower I remember reaching a critical juncture, an impasse that appeared insurmountable which related directly to the concept of organization. I had been a ministerial servant for several years and had been given many “elder” responsibilities, including: conducting the “Book Study”, giving Public talks, taking field service, arranging hospitality and shepherding Rota’s etc. Add to these duties the responsibility of running a business and caring for my wife and three young children and logic demands something had to give. I’m sure many of you can relate to this kind of treadmill existence.

As often happens in high control religions I became more and more depressed with life. On the one hand the WBTS had become a refuge for me from the so-called world of Satan, plus before me dangled the golden carrot of eternal life. All I had to do was remain faithful to the “organization” then I would inherit the world – one day I would have everything my heart desired. However this illusionary ideal did not play out in reality. I felt like a sponge wrung out without another drop to give. Even though the Society regularly reinforces the idea that Jehovah’s people are the ‘happiest’ on earth the truth is many Witnesses are mentally and emotionally stunted. Outside of the organization Witnesses have no identity because they have in affect been institutionalized. This is one of the most disturbing aspects of leaving the organization – the question of “who am I?”

As I contemplated how my life operated, or rather who operated my life, it became uncomfortably clear I was controlled not by Jehovah, but by an organization. I wondered to myself “could this organization simply be man made”? I remember the location of my wake up call; it was during a visit to the town of Boston, Lincolnshire, England whereupon I ended up in a debate with an evangelical preacher. He forthrightly told me that I was ‘spoon fed from Brooklyn’ and that I could not ‘think for myself’. While rejecting off hand the notion that I was ‘spoon fed’ the accusation had profound ramifications. His words dropped into my spirit and began to ferment. As I wrestled with my emotions the scripture that kept bugging me was Matthew 11:28-30.

“Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. “Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS. “For My yoke is EASY and My burden is LIGHT.” (NASB)

I asked myself where was this promised rest? Why could I not find peace and happiness? After all that was the promise when I signed up! I had of course found a religion of unity and conformity but true internal peace? That was another matter. The sad truth is there is no spiritual rest for a Jehovah’s Witness. Instead salvation continues to be a works orientated ‘hope’, that somehow you will do just enough to “make it” through Armageddon. There was no grace and no assurance, only fear and intrepidation; a far cry from the true peace that Jesus promised to those who put faith in him (John 14:27). On reflection I struggled to ‘fit in’ with the ‘real world’ and it was this disconnection with life that drove me to escape into the world of the Watchtower. I sought to please Jehovah by my works. I had unwittingly become trapped in a works orientated cult. It took me a long time to admit this fact, but in the cold light of day I had to admit that the “organization” was indeed man made.[7]

This brings us back to our question of organization. We have established that the word ‘organization’ in the mind of a Jehovah’s Witness encompasses the embodiment of Jehovah himself, the two concepts are inseparable and axiomatic. Jehovah = the organization and vice versa; leave one and you leave the other, serve one and you serve both. Because of this deeply entrenched concept it is imperative for ex-Witnesses to deprogram from this organizational illusion. However, while we would encourage an ex-Witness to deprogram, one negative backlash is the rejection of all-organizational structures; including legitimate civil, judicial or religious structures. Such anti-establishment reflects the individual desire to never again come under the control of man-made organizations. This mentality is compounded by post-modern philosophy. The rejection of organization can produce highly unstable individuals, resulting in: feelings of worthlessness, suicide, depression, aggression, escapism (drugs/alcohol), immorality, moral abandonment, materialism, etc.

Conversely, for the ex-Witness who takes the time to objectively re-examine the Bible, a fresh positive understanding of “organization” may emerge with God’s grace and mercy. However, the spiritual damage done can be so profound that even a born-again Christian will seek an individualistic walk with the Lord. In such cases, Christian organizational structures may be avoided. The result is a “lone ranger” embarking on a “desert island” kind of Christian walk, which is understandable yet neither healthy nor scriptural.

One warning I will add at this juncture is that if you are an ex-Witness and beginning to examine the scriptures and re-evaluate your religious convictions be extremely careful when revisiting the Bible to make sure you jettison ALL your Watchtower presuppositions. This would include doctrines such as: the soul equals the whole person, annihilationism, hell, millennium, resurrection, spiritual Israel etc. Unless this is done you will read back into scripture your Watchtower doctrines and in turn seek religious groups that hold similar views. Instead, you must approach the scriptures with the illumination of the Holy Spirit alongside a fresh piece of paper, a clear rational mind, and with open eyes and heart. Without this purging of WT doctrines the likelihood is you will simply return to a former era of Witness activity.

Sadly, many former members have found solace in the Watchtower’s pre-Rutherford era claiming some sort of apostasy took place after Russell. While it is important to follow the ‘paper trail’ and re-evaluate the origins of the Watchtower it is imperative not to fall into the trap of early Russellite teaching. The danger is that heretical groups such as the Christadelphians, Universalists, and SDA become attractive alternatives to the WBTS. Be very careful not to simply exchange one error for another. Rather take the time to let the scriptures speak for themselves. Pray earnestly for the Holy Spirit to guide you and seek to uncover who Jesus really is, as the key is Jesus and not revised doctrine. In this way, I truly believe the Holy Spirit will lead you to an orthodox understanding of scripture revealing the true nature of Christ, his person and work as God incarnate.

So far we have examined how the word organization relates to the WBTS. While we have not deconstructed the illusionary concept, we have explored the human cost, mentally, emotionally and theologically. When an organization takes the place of God the power over active and inactive members is disturbingly destructive. However, what of the concept of organization in scripture itself? Can we locate systems of worship, which we can honestly call organization? Moreover does the New Testament provide any blueprints for organization within the Christian Church? My presupposition from here on in is that I am engaging with former Jehovah’s Witnesses who have now been born-again as children of God and accept the tenants of orthodoxy (right teaching). The comments below are in no way exhaustive or absolute, but they outline key points from biblical history which relate to the word organization. From these points we can draw working principles to help us in our Christian walk.

To begin with, scripture relates how Yahweh dealt directly with individuals. From Adam onward through History, Yahweh has sought interrelationships with humans. This is a very important fact to recognize. Such close intimacy with God – that of “knowing” him as a close friend is a mythological concept in the mind of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Why is it that a Jehovah’s Witness cannot form a relationship with the Father? The answer is simple yet profound, without revelation of who Jesus is, namely the divine Son, the “I AM” of Exodus 3:14-15 and John 8:58, true intimacy as a child of God is unattainable. To “know” God is to first “know” Jesus. However the tender language of intimacy is almost mythological in Jehovah’s Witnesses conversations; instead it is “Jehovah’s organization” that is continually worshipped. Contrary to this blasphemy the scriptures unambiguously promise intimate fellowship, but with who?

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands, concerning the word of life—the life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest to us—that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ.” (1 John 1-3 ESV)

“God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.” (1 Corinthians 1:9 NIV)

“The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all” (2 Corinthians 13:14 NIV)

Notice the promise of scripture, fellowship is promised with the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. The Greek word used here for fellowship is κοινωνία, meaning “an association involving close mutual relations and involvement—‘close association, fellowship” [8] Jehovah’s Witnesses are robbed of these intimate fellowships with the divine Yahweh. Instead the Jehovah of the Watchtower is a cold, distant, demanding, and capricious God; this distortion of the divine character is a millions miles away from the triune Lord of scripture. This estrangement from the Holy God of scripture grows not only out of heretical doctrines, but also Biblical revisionism. Revisionism is when an interpreter re-writes past history according to a particular bias. This is exactly what the WBTS had done; worst still it has written itself into scripture by claiming prophetic fulfillment as the “Faithfull and discreet slave”. Consequently in Watchtower thinking, all roads lead to itself – the organization!

So how does God view organization? Has God ever created an organization through which to address humankind? Firstly we must be clear that in scripture the word organization does not exist. However the concept that God expresses himself through an elect group does. Whether the term “organization” is applicable to such an elect group is debatable. Who then did God first choose?

According to the providence of God, Israel was elected as his chosen Nation (Deuteronomy 7:7, Jeremiah 31:36, Romans 11:29). This one-sided covenant made originally with Abraham was an unconditional covenant. God made promises to Abraham that required nothing of Abraham (Genesis 15:18-21).[9] Ironically it was Israel NOT the WBTS who God chose to be his “Witnesses”! (Isaiah 43:10-11). Christians disagree over the role of Israel beyond the cross of Christ.[10] However all agree that Israel was the vehicle through which God eventually entered our reality through the incarnation (John 1:1-5, 14, 18). Michael Wyschogrod a Jewish Scholar notes:

“[The covenant between God and Israel] depicts a drawing together of God and Israel. In some sense … it can also be said to involve a certain indwelling of God in the people of Israel whose status as Holy people may be said to derive from this indwelling. Understood in this sense, the divinity of Jesus is not radically different – though perhaps more concentrated – than the holiness of the Jewish people[11]

Therefore the Christian doctrine of the incarnation can be viewed as a development of the Bible’s account of God’s movement toward human creation in the people of Israel. [12] This is a profound point to ponder for anyone denying Christ’s deity. In all of this, the movement of Yahweh towards man is intimate and not just perfunctory. A perusal of the Psalms confirms the intimacy that pre-Christian saints had with God. Within the Law we find the two greatest commandments to love God and neighbor (Deuteronomy 6:5, Leviticus 19:18), upon which – according to Christ – the whole law and prophets hang (Matthew 22:37-40). It is this one-on-one divine love that counteracts legalism and self-righteousness and instead plunges the believer into intimate fellowship with God. Unlike the endless Watchtower demands for evidence of good works, a Christian life that is intimate with God naturally produces good works without pressure or coercion. What a wonderful truth that is!

From the Abrahamic covenant and election of Israel developed Yahweh’s theocratic Kingdom. The laws to govern this theocracy were given to Moses at Sinai (Exodus 24:12; Deuteronomy 4:44; 31:24). However, when Israel’s leadership eventually rejected the Messiah, God’s Theocratic rule on earth temporarily ceased. Nevertheless a new spiritual entity emerged, namely the Church or “called out ones”.[13] Beginning as a purely messianic sect and a remnant from the rootstock of Israel (Romans Chapter 11), the Church (ekklesia) eventually incorporated both Jew and Gentile into “one new man” (Ephesians 2:15, Romans 11:25, John 10:16).

Moving from the era of Mosaic Law into the Christian era, the ekklesia of God were saved not through adherence to Mosaic law but through grace (Romans 11:6). Heartbreakingly Jehovah’s Witnesses have no concept of the Gospel of Grace[14]. Instead the WBTS presents the narrative of “Jehovah’s organization” claiming that God has always had an “organization” which believers must obey. The spiritual result of accepting this lie is servitude to a man-made “organization” (Matthew 15:9; John 5:39-40).

Contrary to WBTS claims, as we arrive at the Christian era, we can confirm that Yahweh did not continue to have an earthly theocratic “organization”. How then are we to understand Christianity? Does not Christianity express itself in terms of “organization”? Well it is certainly true that throughout Church history “organization” has been employed. However organization should be understood in the sense of administration. You might say the Church is not an organization, but there must be organization in the Church. This is far different from an authoritative organization which operates a totalitarian regime over its members.

Loose organizational arrangements can be found throughout the NT, we find appointments of elders (Titus 1:5), gifts of administration (Romans 12:7,) and collections for the needy (1 Corinthians 16:1-2) etc. However, whatever the organizational arrangement the goal was the same; edification of the body/Church of whom Christ is head (1 Corinthians 12:12-27). It is imperative that all Christians maintain a clear vision of Christ as head of his Church (Ephesians 5:23; Colossians 1:18), no matter what denomination you fellowship with. Nothing must supersede or divert the Christians direct communion with the Head. The indwelling spirit supplies the humblest Christian with guidance, which is unfailing when rightly used.[15] This headship principle between Christ, the Church and the individual member is usurped by the WBTS and the so-called “Faithful slave/Governing body” assumes the role of mediator. So while an individual Witness is encouraged to pray to Jehovah, no spiritual autonomy really exists. Religious practice and faith is processed through the Watchtower “organization”.

While it is true some Christian denominations have sadly become sectarian and even cultic in nature, this does not reflect the NT revelation. Christians are not bound to any one expression of Christianity. Yes multiple denominations exist and some are better than others, but denominations are not the Church[16]. The Church is the people and their head is Christ! That means across all Nations millions of Christians find unity with God in Christ. This spiritual identity in Christ transcends all social and ethnic barriers, no longer is any single “organization” looked to for guidance but rather each born-again believer is washed clean, sanctified, and regenerated through the divine gift of grace. No longer is a Levitical priesthood required for all believers belong to a spiritual priesthood and not just 144,000, nor are temple sacrifices needed because Jesus our Passover lamb has been sacrificed. What we discover is that much of the OT mosaic laws (if not all) become shadows or types of the superior and completed work of Christ (Colossians 2:17; 1 Peter 2:9; 1 Corinthians 5:7; Hebrews 8:5; 10:1).

Today a growing number of Christian’s -possibly without knowing it – have adopted a postmodern view of fellowship. Postmodernism seeks to deconstruct traditional models and set people “free” from oppressive “organization” – this includes traditional forms of Church. Christians who seek to replace ecclesiastical structures believe the spiritual unity of all believers should suffice. However, while the NT Witness provides clear evidence that the NT Church operated informally with very little (if any) liturgy, the individual members still had visible expression. In other words, communities of believers existed.

Some would argue we must return to a purer form of fellowship, pointing to the NT gatherings of Christians in private homes (Philemon 1:2). However the NT Church does not necessarily set a president to abolish modern-day Church organizations. Yet we must confess that organizations can quickly become man-centered and “home Church” while admirable, can fall miserably short of the NT ideal[17]. I guess you can say born-again spirit filled Christians constitute a perfect spiritual Church but humanly speaking reflect a very imperfect expression of that reality!

We must remember that ultimately the Church comprises “people” who are bound to one another by re-birth. As such, no matter where we meet, the exhortation is the same; God’s children must regularly gather for edification (Hebrews 10:25). In this way each believer lives out his Christian life as part of a local body of believers, just as the NT confirms. Such fellowship brings with it mutual accountability. As we get to know people in our fellowship we begin to practice “the law of Christ” sacrificially living in community. This is a wonderful provision from our Lord and provides a visible witness to the unbelieving world. Nevertheless, I admit finding a good biblically sound fellowship is not easy, but that is no reason to fall into isolationism! The key to any healthy church is the centrality of Christ, followed by three essential elements: a shepherd, an evangelist and a teacher. These three form the “stool” upon which the congregation can thrive and grow in a balanced way. Remove any one of the three and the stool falls over!

For former Jehovah’s Witnesses who are now born-again, perhaps there will always be a degree of disconnect with the institutional church. Perhaps some of this can be attributed to latent JW baggage, a kind of anti-authority, anti-leadership mentality. For example, churches generally employ systems of government which former Witnesses find oppressive. Some would argue Church government is unnecessary; after all Christ is our head and therefore we surely do not need the “control” of elders or pastors? I would agree we do not want Control. However, God is a God of order wherein he calls individuals to roles within his Church including the role of shepherd (1 Peter 5:2, Ephesians 4:11-14). Consequently whether we fellowship in a gathering of one hundred people or three, someone must take the lead, otherwise chaos may ensue (1 Corinthians). Time does not permit an in-depth study of the various Church government perspectives; suffice to say each can find some support from scripture.[18] Bearing in mind that being a child of God equates to being part of the family of God should be sufficient to promote authentic Christian community. Herein we share with one another our possessions, our hearts, our pain and our love (Acts 4:32-33).[19]

CONCLUSION

  • Do the scriptures reveal any organizational systems?

Yes, God elected Israel and presented to her the Law of Moses. To a large degree these laws outlined principles for living in harmony with one another and God (Genesis 17:17; Exodus 24:12).

  • What was the purpose of this election?

Israel was to be the channel through which Yahweh would bring blessing to the world, ultimately through Messiah (Genesis 18:18, Daniel 9:25-26).

  • Was this a theocracy?

Yes Yahweh was the “King” and ruler of his people Israel (Isaiah 44:6).

  • Are we still in a theocracy?

No. With the death, burial and resurrection of Christ the theocracy ended. Today we live in the Church age; a universal community of believers united in Christ through divine re-birth (Luke 13:35).

  • Does the NT provide us with blueprint for a modern-day organization? No, Church is not an organization however there must be some organization in the Church. Order is maintained through God’s ordained callings and gifts for the edification of the saints. Each Christian has freedom in Christ to explore the various expressions of Christianity and fellowship and worship where he/she feels led. No “absolute” blueprint exists.

Remarkably and alarmingly the WBTS views itself as “Jehovah’s theocratic organization”. This strange synthesis of God and organization has resulted in the deification of the WBTS. The result is the organization can do no wrong because it is believed to be “Jehovah’s organization”. However contrary to this position, we have seen how this is an illusionary concept. The only way to be truly “Free” and close to God is to abandon man-made organizations/religions (Revelation 18:4) that control and dictate and submit to our creator, the Lord Jesus (John 1:3; Hebrews 1:2-3, 8, 10). This move towards God is a personal intimate experience.

“For in him [Jesus] all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.” (Colossians 1:19-20 ESV)

“Then Jesus said, “Come to me, all of you who are weary and carry heavy burdens, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you. Let me teach you, because I am humble and gentle at heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy to bear, and the burden I give you is light.” (Matthew 11:28-30 NLT)

Jesus said: “If you truly love ME, you will keep my commandments I have given you [to love one another] and I will ask the Father to give you someone else to stand by you, to be with you always. I mean the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot accept, for HE is with you now and will be in your hearts. I am not going to leave you alone in the world- I am coming to you…because I am really alive and you will be alive too…you will realize that I am in my Father, that you are in me, and I am in you…when a man loves ME, he follow my teaching. Then my Father will love him, and WE will come to that man and make our home within him…But the one who is coming to stand by you, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in MY name, will be your teacher and will bring to your minds all that I have said…you must not be distressed and you must be daunted…you must go on living in love…it is not that you have chosen me; but it is I who have chosen you.” (Excerpts from John chapter 14:15 – 15:17 Phillips translation)

What wonderful inspired words of divine love and encouragement to continue in fellowship with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit!

I trust you will find this somewhat unusual discussion of “organization” helpful in your ministry to the Jehovah’s Witnesses and in your personal walk with our Lord.

May we continue to submit to our King and Savior in all things as we walk together as part of the universal Church of Jesus Christ, Amen!

Until he comes…Shalom

Jason Wright

 

FOOTNOTES:

[1] http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/organization.php

http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102002074

[2] http://reachouttrust.org/jehovahs-witnesses/was-the-watchtower-society-chosen-by-jesus-in-1919-2/

[3] Cameron, Don “Captives of a Concept (Anatomy of an Illusion)” Lulu.com 1995

[4] Holden, Andrew “Jehovah’s Witnesses – portrait of a contemporary religious movement” Routledge 2002 pages 140, 81.

[5] Bowman Robert M, Jr. “Jehovah’s Witnesses – why they read the Bible the way they do” Baker Books 1992 page 91-92.

[6] http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/organization.php

[7] My full testimony can be viewed here: http://4jehovah.org/jason-ex-jehovahs-witness/ – audio interview here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZO7fkZU6p8

[8] Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Vol. 1: Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: Based on semantic domains (electronic ed. of the 2nd edition.) (445). New York: United Bible Societies.

[9] http://www.gotquestions.org/Abrahamic-covenant.html

[10] I would recommend further studies of Israel using the following publications: Feinberg John S. “Continuity and Discontinuity – Perspectives on the relationship between the old and new covenants” Crossway 1988. Diprose Ronald E. “Israel and the Church – the origins and effects of replacement theology” Authentic Media 2004. Vlach Michael J. “Has the Church replaced Israel?” B&H Academic 2010, and for a discussion of the development of supercessionism see Soulen Kendell R. “The God of Israel and Christian Theology” Fortress Press 1996.

[11] Wyschogrod Michael “Christology: The immovable Object” Religion and Intellectual life 3 (1986) page 79.

[12] Soulen Kendell R. “The God of Israel and Christian Theology” Fortress Press 1996 page 9.

[13] Visit Got Questions for more information: http://www.gotquestions.org/origin-Christianity.html

[14] Visit CARM for more information on salvation: http://carm.org/what-is-salvation

[15] Wright David F. and Hammond T.C. “In Understanding be men – A handbook of Christian doctrine” IVP reprint 2002.

[16] I should point out that in my personal opinion a growing number of mainstream evangelical denominations are falling into serious theological errors, including: ecumenicalism, emergent theologies, hyper-charismatic extremes, liberalism and anti-Semitism. If a Church leans towards a social Gospel and liberal, libertarian ideologies then I would urge caution. Also check out Church “affiliations” which can highlight potential problems. A Christian looking for a new Church should always check the faith statements of potential candidates. In my experience evangelical “free” churches that adhere to orthodox Biblical theology are a good place to start.

[17] http://www.gotquestions.org/home-church.htmlhttp://www.gotquestions.org/simple-church.html

[18] For further consideration please see; Denver Mark “What is a Healthy Church” Crossway Books 2007; Brand Owen Chad, Norman Stanton R, et al “Perspectives on Church Government – five views” B&H Academic 2004.

[19] See Hellerman Joseph H. “When the Church was a Family” B&H Academic 2009.

Advertisements

Tagged as: , , , , , , , , ,

23 Responses »

  1. Hi, you view organization as from people, not church. So, that means you view GB is an organization?? And from organization, which you view from GB, ‘demands for evidence of good works’, which not match your define of ‘Gospel of Grace’. So, to be under’s God Grace means we don’t have to work at all, just believe in God? You also mention to love him and follow his command. So, it is work. So, GB do follow work, like you say you follow work. So, to have grace, means to work. That means it is evidence of action, which is work. Work as do anything to earn something like if you work, you earn money.

    So, you follow a person if a person tell you, and which you do as work for that person, which you will accept as it is in bible? So, it is like you are saying GB do work, but beyond Bible’s command. So, it is either GB and Bible’s command or it is GB’s command alone?? Not just the Bible’s command.The result of person that follow command will become work. So, the person’s work as follow from command as source. So, you mention fellowship, which means around another people to talk and other stuff. So, that is work you mean?? So, your work is less than GB’s work. Just socialize with people that is all, in positive way, which it is work from all of them.

    You mean you don’t follow another person if person tell you something. You just do good and that person will do good. Both of you will do good as both do good work. So it is different from father to a child. A father tells the child what to do and the child follows. So, you are not a child of a person to follow, just like a father to be independent of another person, except in bible. So, you can say no or yes to that person. So, what you decide is good if you say no or another person say yes, it is all good. Not bad??

    • Hello, many thanks for your comment. I must admit I am struggling to follow your line of reasoning. Perhaps if you wish to discuss the subject more you can contact me direct; jason02061990@btinternet.com

      I think you might be getting mixed up between grace and works. Grace is a free gift from God which seals a person to salvation. Eph 2:8 “For by grace you HAVE been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the GIFT of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

      Salvation or being “born again” is open to all people. The individual hears the “Gospel” or “Good News” which is outlined by Paul at 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 “Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures”

      Hence salvation is a personal experience between the individual and God. Sadly a JW does “works” (door-to-door, meetings, etc.) to hopefully BE saved (future) through Armageddon. Whereas the NT teaches that salvation is not based on works, but rather WORKS are the RESULT of HAVING (present) already received salvation. In other words good works flow naturally from the SAVED person. Good works alone do not equal salvation. The result of salvation is a personal relationship with Jesus; Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Do you have this relationship?

      Furthermore understanding the Bible is dependent of the illumination of the Holy Spirit, not just what men say. Growth in Christ is supernatural; John 16:13 “When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.” What is truth? Jesus said HE was truth and that HIS word is truth (John 14:6). Consequently a Christian with the illumination of the Holy Spirit can understand the spiritual truths of scripture. He/She may seek other sources of information for help such as lexicons, commentaries etc. but ultimately the individual can meet with God in a personal way through the illumination of the Holy Spirit/Bible. However I must add that many secondary sources are the work of spirit filled men illuminated by the Spirit, albeit not inspired.

      The Church then is made up of two things 1) The universal Church; this is a spiritual entity spread throughout all nations and denominations made up of spirit filled born again believers with Christ as Head 2) The local Church is the expression of Christ body in any given locality.

      It is true that a Christian does not have to go to a local Church, however scripture encourages gathering for edification (Hebrews 10:25). The Christian life (in my opinion) should be lived out with other believers not in isolation. I admit that in a Church setting organisational structure is required and individuals may receive various responsibilities (elder, deacon etc.) However the difference between a local Church and the JW Governing body is that no Christian (should) elevate his local Church or the denominational structure he/she belong to, to the position of God himself. Sadly the GB does exactly that. The Watchtower organisation has elevated itself to a position of “God’s spokesmen” and therefore – as explained in the essay above – a JW cannot differentiate between the GB/Organization and Jehovah himself. The two concepts are synonymous. Therefore JW’s worship the organisation as Jehovah. They cannot function without the organisation.

      This is not the case for Christians, they function as individual members of the universal church of Jesus Christ. Therefore a Christian does not need to be a member of any specific organisation because each Christian has a relationship with Christ and therefore ultimately submits to Christ his head and the head of the Church (Col 1:18). That means a Christian can disagree with decisions made in his/her local Church. This freedom is not available in the Watchtower; JW’s have to “do what they are told” – spoon fed from Brooklyn. No true Christian worships an organisation.

      Freedom in Christ is a wonderful reality; “So if the Son sets you free, you are truly free.” – Are you truly FREE in Christ? I don’t mean free to sin, but free from the bondage of sin and death? Are you a new creation in Christ?

      Col 2:6-7 “Therefore, as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, rooted and built up in him and established in the faith, just as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving.”

      Have you received Christ? Do you know Jesus as your saviour and LORD? Or do you rely on the Watchtower?

      I urge you to read the Bible alone and pray to Jehovah to reveal to you the true nature of Jesus. Always here if you want to talk.

      LORD Bless
      Jason

      • What you say is same as JW. Unless you mean work by mean we are already good and will do good or what we do is as good as God that save us because Jesus die for us? Ya believe Jesus is God? You mention free from bondage of sin that mean you believe we can sin or we can’t sin because Jesus save us? You mention we can say no, if we can’t that mean it is worship. So, you are saying, it is ok we can say no and everything will be fine?

        It is nothing wrong to say no or yes, or prefer to say no and keep going as if you say no or to say yes and keep going as if you say yes. For example, someone tell you to clean up, you say no and move on as if you say no that mean you don’t clean. Or you say yes and move on as if you say yes that mean you did clean.

        Since Jesus save us that means we can sin or not to sin, either way we are save or if you believe Jesus save us, that means we can’t sin no more as if it is impossible to not sin or since Jesus save us that means regardless we sin, we are save anyway.

        If you believe we sin and believe in God, then you believe in work to not to sin. What about we have to do what the bible tell us, that is ok? Or not, we can do whatever we want, regardless bible say because Jesus save us? So, it is ok to be spoon-fed from bible, as you say you believe Jehovah and GB are the same, as if GB is god. Then it is ok to spoon-fed from God?

  2. I think you are missing the point. You seem confused over the difference between salvation, works and sin. May I ask are you a Jehovah’s witness? If yes would you say you are eternally saved or that you hope to be saved? Shalom Jason

    • Ok, what I am missing the point?? I ask ya three questions. Do you believe we sin and we work so we do not sin; do Jesus save us, don’t matter we do, that mean we sin or not to sin; or we do sin and yet we are good, so sin is good now because Jesus save us? Which one is right one for your belief now?

      If first question is yes, then it would mean ‘spoon-fed’ from Bible?

      I go to Kingdom Hall. So you believe saved or hope to be saved now?? Not saved later. What do you mean saved?

  3. Firstly please accept my apology for not contacting you sooner – I have been snowed under with other obligations.

    TOPIC SALVATION.

    Firstly I urge you to read the scriptures I quote below and mediate on them. I’ll try to explain salvation as clear and simply as I can.

    1) Jesus Christ came to “save” sinners from Judgement and eternal separation from God (John 3:16-18; 12:47, Romans 5:8).
    2) Salvation occurs when a person accepts Jesus as their personal LORD and Saviour. (John 3:36, Acts 16:31)
    3) The Bible calls this being “born again” into the family of God as a child of God (John 3:1-7; 1 Peter 1:3, Romans 8:15-16)
    4) At spiritual rebirth a person is sealed by the Holy Spirit unto eternal life. (Ephesians 1:13-14, Acts 2:38-39)
    5) This act of faith is a free gift from God and not due to anything the human can offer. (Romans 5:15, 6:23, 12:3; Galatians 2:21)
    6) In this way “salvation” is free to all who would take advantage of Jesus offer. (John 8:36; Revelation 22:17)
    7) A saved person is eternally secure, and is guaranteed to inherit eternal life. (Romans 5:1; Ephesians 2:8; John 1:12)

    Jesus said:

    “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me HAS eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life”. (John 5:24)

    “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes HAS eternal life.” (John 6:47)

    “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I GIVE them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.” (John 10:27-28)

    How do you understand salvation? Are you saved?

    Please feel free to contact me direct, my e-mail is jason02061990@btinternet.com
    God bless Jason

    • Ok, I do it here because of reader can see our conversation. So, basically you are saying just believe in Jesus. “I believe in Jesus”, then I am eternally saved. So, you believe you are eternally saved. Now you are as done as to have eternal life, even you are within temporary life status. By status I mean you are in the world of temporary life status.

      If that is so, that would mean

      “do Jesus save us, don’t matter we do, that mean we sin or not to sin; or we do sin and yet we are good, so sin is good now because Jesus save us? Which one is right one for your belief now?” Is yes to both questions above. And last question in quote is a result of an answer at above, before I copy and paste.

      • Hi again, my apology for the late reply. Just so busy!

        In answer to your question “So, basically you are saying just believe in Jesus. “I believe in Jesus”, then I am eternally saved” – NO I’m not saying that I’m eternally saved – JESUS IS SAYING IT!

        “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me HAS eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life”. (John 5:24)

        “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes HAS eternal life.” (John 6:47)

        “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I GIVE them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.” (John 10:27-28)

        Listen to how Paul explains salvation in Ephesians 1:4-14:

        Eph 1:4 “even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.”

        Notice the offer of eternal salvation is to ALL whom God foreknows, not just a limited 144,000. Also note the absolute guarantee of eternal salvation sealed by the Holy Spirit. This means salvation is a GIFT from God, not something we earn.

        Paul continues: Eph 2:8-9 “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

        See this article:https://bible.org/seriespage/assurance-eternal-security

        Some Christian believe that if a Christian sins then God can take away their eternal salvation. However I do not believe the Bible teaches this. Apostasy from Christianity or ongoing unrepentant sin (no fruit of changed life) more likely reveals that a person was never truly saved in the first place.

        You mention that if we are eternally saved this gives licence for us to sin. I agree that is how some Christians may interpret salvation. However Paul makes clear that eternal salvation is no excuse to sin when writing the Romans 6:1-2:

        “What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?”

        On the other hand imperfect, sinful humans do still sin in various ways. The Apostle John noted this in 1John 1:8-10:

        “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”

        So we have a paradox. On the one hand a born again believer is eternally saved and yet still sins. The answer is simple. Positionally from God’s perspective we are eternally saved, we call this JUSTIFICATION. This is a absolute guarantee. However relatively we are still human, and exist in a corrupt nature. Due to this we still sin. However Jesus sacrifice covers our sin, thus through repentance we maintain a clean conscience before a Holy God. This ongoing walk with God is called SANCTIFICATION. A process of moving forward in God’s power.

        This does NOT mean we can sin because we are saved. ALL SIN has consequences. We see this in scripture where even born again believers suffer temporal loss due to unrepentant sin (cf. Acts 5:1-11). That means if a born again believer commits adultery he/she will pay a price in this life.

        I also believe in what is known as the doctrine of “eternal rewards” – this teaching explains that what we do once we are saved has ramifications on our eternal rewards. In other words after our glorification we will stand before Christ to receive our rewards. This is known as the bema seat Judgement of Christ, limited to true believers. This is not a Judgement of punishment but of rewards, such as what our future responsibilities in the Kingdom of God might be. Paul explains this doctrine to the Corinthians 2 Cor 5:10:

        “For we must all appear before the judgment (Bema) seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.”

        Jesus explains the principle in the parable of the minas, Luke 19:16, 26:

        “The first came before him, saying, ‘Lord, your mina has made ten minas more.’And he said to him, ‘Well done, good servant! Because you have been faithful in a very little, you shall have authority over ten cities.’… ‘I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away.”

        See article: https://bible.org/article/doctrine-rewards-judgment-seat-bema-christ

        So in conclusion, born again believers are eternally saved, but while still in this body we are NOT sinless. That means we make mistakes and mess up. However neither eternal salvation nor our sinful nature is any excuse to wilfully sin. If we sin we pay the price of sin in this life and at the Judgement seat of Christ.

        Always remember we DO NOT WORK FOR SALVATION – but works come as a result of salvation because we ARE saved and in relationship with the LORD. Works flow out of gratitude for what has already been done. His amazing Grace!

        I hope that helps!

        God bless
        Jason

      • By another article that I read which give more explanation about eternal salvation. We can’t lose our salvation no matter what we do because we are eternal save by Jesus. You mention we pay price of sin in this life and at Judgement seat of Christ, what that mean?? What happen you pay, and what is the payment?? So, you believe all human are safe already. So, there is no work for salvation, then why we do die?? And since Jesus die for us, all human are alive, alive at where? You mention 144,000 go to heaven, what about other people? You say 144,000 base on JW, but also other people is include on earth. Basically you believe we don’t have to work and be safe, you believe JW believe we work to be save? So, yours is better since there is no work, just pure gift.

  4. I would encourage you to read the scriptures I quoted again carefully and pray for the illumination of the Holy Spirit. This is not about what I believe or what you believe but what the Bible says.

    As Jesus and the Apostles confirm salvation is a FREE GIFT which all who believe receive by faith, we cannot earn that gift of eternal life.

    Sin is a condition. We are children of Adam and consequently corrupt. Sin is part of being human. We cannot pay the price for sin, Jesus has done that already. Jesus has died for us. That means we gain eternal life because he has paid the price of our sin for us. The wages of sin is death, that is why humans die. All we could ever earn is death.

    As I have explained in detail in my last post although a born again Christian is eternally saved they still exist in a corrupt human nature. Each day we fall short of God’s glory. Thankfully Jesus has paid the price for our sin, so we can be made knew each day. However Jesus does not necessarily protect us from the consequences of sin in this life. If you rob a bank you will pay the price. If you drink too much you will pay the price. In other words you reap what you sow. There are temporal consequences of our actions.

    The Judgement seat of Christ is not a judgement of punishment but a judgement of rewards for true believers. Depending on what we have done with the minas Jesus has given us will depend on what our eternal rewards are.

    So we do not PAY for anything, Jesus has paid for our sin. However our actions affect our rewards. As I said before eternal salvation is no excuse to sin, indeed unrepentant wilful sinners may not be saved at all, because true salvation brings regeneration. By that I mean when we are saved we change. As we submit to Christ he changes us from within.

    Not all humans are safe. Only those who accept Jesus as LORD and Savior and who have been born again by the Spirit of God are truly safe. All others according to scripture are headed to the lake of fire. Eternal separation from God in the abode of Gehenna.

    Joh 3:18 “Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.”

    Rev 20:10, 15 “and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever…Rev 20:15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”

    By the way Jesus did die for all humanity:

    1Jn 2:2 “He (Jesus) is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.”

    However while Jesus died for the whole world, Salvation is limited to those who by God’s foreknowledge are called unto himself. Perhaps you are being called right now as we speak? I pray that be so!

    Eph 1:4-6 “even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.”

    The Bible does not teach that only 144,000 go to heaven. If you read the verse carefully in Revelation the 144,000 represent a remnant of faithful Jews during the tribulation period. (other Christians feel this represents the corporate Church) whichever view you hold the scripture does NOT teach a limited number go to heaven. Jehovah’s witnesses created this two tear system of salvation. One group in heaven one on earth. This is not scritptural.

    John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.”

    Jesus said “Joh 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.”

    Please note Jesus said “Whoever believes” in other words the number of those going to heaven is not fixed at 144,000. It could be 10 billion! Only God knows the number of the elect.

    Jehovah’s witnesses work to try and be good enough to survive Armageddon. That is a fact. However the Bible does not teach this. Eternal salvation cannot be earned, it is a wonderful FREE GIFT offered to all people including yourself. Salvation is a simple act, nothing complicated or difficult.

    You suggest that because the gift is free and we don’t work to earn salvation that some how the gift is too easy? However this gift is not to be taken lightly. The price of salvation has come at great cost to God’s own Son. All who receive this gift of life understand that we are unworthy of this gift, that is why the gift is so amazing. That is why it is amazing grace!

    Are you good enough to go to heaven? NO! Watch this:

    The miracle is that Jesus died for you and wants you to spend eternity with him. Not because you are a good person or have lived a good life but because you believe in his sacrifice for your sin. He has already paid the price. DON’T REJECT WHAT HE HAS DONE FOR YOU!

    John 6:37 “All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.”

    Are you going to reject that offer?

    Please watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agGOsYvldPI

    God bless
    Jason

    • Hi, you say don’t reject so that means work as if you don’t reject Him and live what you want to live what he tells me to do. It is base on action? Or you say it is not what you believe, but the bible believe. Well, you don’t interpreter the bible the right way, so it is not entirely the bible, it is what you believe the bible says. Well, you may interpreter, but not enough scripture and contest to
      match the whole bible.

      So, you say we don’t work for salvation, but we say, but not work. Just say I believe in Jesus, that is all and be save. No action on my part? You also say people will be destroy. So, you say foreknow by God that He will save me or not. So, I don’t have to do anything except hope that He will save me, right?? Or just say I believe in Jesus, then I will be save??

      Just verbal action or mentally action, ‘I believe in Jesus’. Then why we are here on earth?? If we all go to heaven? Where is Adam is?? Our first father, the first human. We die because of Adam, right? If Adam live, what happen to Adam?

  5. Hi again, thanks for replying. I have explained everything you have asked. If you re-read my messages I have explained free will and Gods foreknowledge, the origin of death and eternity.

    Perhaps I can ask some questions. You say I don’t interpret the Bible correctly? – I don’t provide enough scripture or use the whole Bible?

    1) How do you interpret the Bible?
    2) Do you need the Watchtower to interpret?
    3) Where do you think Adam is?
    4) What is heaven for?
    5) What is salvation
    6) Do you know Jesus personally?

    Blessings
    Jason

    • The WT do interpret the bible. Don’t know why you assume that they don’t interpret the bible. Because they use the bible. If they don’t use the bible, you would be correct saying WT interpret by not using the bible, but what they say. They use the bible because you can see they use the bible. It is obvious. By the bible itself. The bible help the bible to understand the bible. I know the answer for number 3 and 5, 6. What is your answer for 3) and 4)? You know JW teachings, so you know the answer the JW will say relate to those questions. But what is your belief for those questions I mention above?

      You haven’t explain the origin of death, except that you know we die.

      You haven’t say what is heaven for? If there is heaven, what is earth for?? You believe most human will go to heaven and other humans will die to become nothings, right or where they be when they die if not go to heaven?

      Then the earth will be empty.

      The problem you believe in trinity. But what JW say make sense and Jesus did die completely. Why you don’t believe it?? If it make sense to you and there is paradise earth? Why you don’t accept JW because it sounds good to you?? Why does trinity sound better to you?

      If Jesus is God, how Jesus was raise?

      • Firstly you have not answered points 5 and 6? What is salvation? and Do you know Jesus personally?

        I agree the Bible does interpret the Bible. However you must accept that the Watchtower was founded by a man – Charles Taze Russell who received his doctrines and teaching from the Seventh Day Adventists (Millerites). Therefore he did not interpret the Bible but rather accepted the teachings of others. These teachings cannot be supported from the Bible. Additionally many of Russell’s teachings have been changed over the decades by new presidents of the Watchtower. God’s word does not change. How do you explain these doctrinal changes? For example Russell said:

        “we present proofs that the setting up of the Kingdom of God is already begun, that it is pointed out in prophecy as due to begin the exercise of power in A.D. 1878, and that the “battle of the great day of God Almighty” (Rev. 16:14), which will end in A.D. 1914 with the complete overthrow of earth’s present rulership, is already commenced. The gathering of the armies is plainly visible from the standpoint of God’s Word.” Studies In the Scriptures Series II – The Time Is At Hand (1889) pp.99, 101”

        Right up until the 1930’s Jehovah’s witnesses believed that Jesus returned invisibly in 1874. How do you explain these later changes if the Watchtower uses the Bible to interpret the Bible? How could they get it so wrong?

        Coming back to your questions concerning death, heaven and earth. I will explain for you.

        1) Why did Adam die?

        Gen 2:16-17 “And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

        A test of loyalty to their creator! Through the original serpent (Satan) Adam and Eve failed this test and were condemned to death. This rebellion changed the nature of Adam and Eve from immortal to mortal beings. The consequence of sin was death. Death therefore entered the human race through sin and thus all humans die. Paul explains in Romans 5:12-17:

        “Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come. But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. And the free gift is not like the result of that one man’s sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. For if, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.”

        If you believe the Bible interprets the Bible then please note that Paul said the cancellation of death is through belief in Jesus. Jesus brings eternal life as a FREE GIFT though faith, not through works or through belonging to a specific religion. This is what Christians call “grace” – You and I are condemned to death unless we believe in Jesus. Only faith in Jesus as LORD and Savior can save a person from eternal death – by that I do not mean annihilation but separation.

        While on the subject of Adam and Eve, more than eternal life was lost in Eden. Humans lost there intimate relationship with God. God created Adam and Eve to be part of his universal family. Rebellion separated God from man, man in affect died spiritually when sin entered into the human race. Please read careful the following passage Genesis 3:8-19:

        And they heard the sound of JEHOVAH God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of JEHOVAH God among the trees of the garden. But JEHOVAH God called to the man and said to him, “Where are you?” And he said, “I heard the sound of you in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked, and I hid myself.” He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten of the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?” The man said, “The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me fruit of the tree, and I ate.” Then the JEHOVAH God said to the woman, “What is this that you have done?” The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.” JEHOVAH God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this, cursed are you above all livestock and above all beasts of the field; on your belly you shall go, and dust you shall eat all the days of your life. I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.”
        To the woman he said, “I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children. Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.”
        And to Adam he said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, ‘You shall not eat of it,’ cursed is the ground because of you; in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life; thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you; and you shall eat the plants of the field. By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.”

        Note that God visited Adam and Eve, “Jehovah God was walking in the garden in the cool of the day” Jehovah spoke in the garden face to face with Adam and Eve because he was in relationship with his children. However the Bible says that no human can see God and live (Exodus 33:20) so I ask you who was speaking to Adam and Eve in the Garden? Was it Jehovah? Please explain who this was?

        Because sin has entered the World, all humans die. No human is worthy of eternal life because we are sinners. However God’s plan of redemption through Jesus means that those who believe in Jesus can escape physical death and eternal separation in Gehenna.

        The error you are making is to think that heaven is for God and earth for man. The truth is God in now inviting humans to be with him in heaven. The scriptures are clear, Jesus himself prayed to his Father that his followers – which include all who believe – will be WITH HIM where he is! Where is Jesus now? In heaven!

        Joh 17:20, 24 “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word…I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world.”

        How wonderful! Jesus our LORD and Savior taking to himself those who believe in him through faith. What do we receive?

        1Co 15:47-48, 49, 53 “The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven… As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven…Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven… For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.”

        WOW! Those who believe in Jesus receive resurrection bodies that are immortal and we bear the image of him who was from heaven. Indeed we who believe go to heaven because our citizenship is in heaven!

        Php 3:20-21 “But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.”

        Jesus never says this is only for 144,000! Please read the Bible carefully – that is where you will find “truth”

        Your next question is about earth. You say “the earth will be empty” – This subject is complex and depends on your view of eschatology (end times). At the end of the age the earth will be destroyed and a new heaven and new earth made. When this time arrives all who have believed in Jesus will dwell with him in this eternal realm. All who have not believed will dwell in another abode (Gehenna) eternally separated from God. Please read carefully God’s words:

        2Peter 3:10 “But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.”

        Isa 34:4 “All the host of heaven shall rot away, and the skies roll up like a scroll. All their host shall fall, as leaves fall from the vine, like leaves falling from the fig tree.”

        Rev 6:14 “The sky vanished like a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place…

        Revelation 20:11b “From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them.”

        After this we enter the eternal realm:

        Rev 21:1-3 “Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
        And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God.”

        Please note at this stage in history, God will once again DWELL (tabernacle) with man just as he had done in Eden. Gods purpose was not just to make to earth for humans, but to be in relationship with his children. That is his ultimate goal to reconcile all things to himself. Amen!

        Paradise earth is the invention of the Watchtower. I do believe in a interim period before the new heavens and new earth, i.e. the Millennial Kingdom, however this will end and give way to the eternal. It is in the millennium that OT promises to Israel will be fulfilled. However that’s a massive subject.

        Finally we get to the crux of what is really bothering you – The Trinity! – I know what the Watchtower has told you about this doctrine. Sadly you will never be able to understand who the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are unless you accept they are three persons in one God. I can show you all the scriptural evidence, however only God can show you who he really is. Do you want to know the true Jehovah? I can point the way!

        God Bless
        Jason

  6. Salvation for me is to obey God and work well under God. Well, work and obey both go together. But your salvation is different, it means because of Jesus we will go to Heaven after we die after we verbal say we believe in Jesus. (Well, verbally or mentally). But those that don’t believe in Jesus will be in eternal separate that is what you believe as what the bible say.

    I know Jesus what he do from the bible.

    So, what will happen to new earth?? For old earth, is for eternal separate of God which is Gehenna. You believe Heaven, Old Earth, New earth (in future). But heaven is same, not new heaven. If Adam didn’t rebel, what would happen?

    God didn’t talk to them, Adam and Eve, but either spoke person as representative or not literally because you say God do not see human.

    If Jesus is God, how Jesus was raise? You believe Jesus raise himself?

    Your definition of death is eternal separate, not annihilation, which means we are connect with God always as God can see us but not have connect with us (eternal separate) or connect with us. (Relationship)

    To dwell, means He will be with human, not spirit. Not ex-human, when they become spirit. If there are eternal separate, what are they? Human, spirit – good or bad?

    You say that I never understand 3 in 1 unless I accept them?? Accept and never understand are opposite of each other, eternal opposite. If I accept them, I will understand 3 in 1? What do you understand about trinity?

    Does it matters that bible that you should understand or don’t understand or don’t matter?

    Ok, when all human go to heaven in future, the earth will be destroy and new earth will be create, where is other human on new earth? Do you believe you will be on new earth?

  7. You cannot earn salvation. Please read what the Bible says, it is very clear:

    Ephesians 2:8, 9: “For by grace are ye saved through faith: and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”

    NOT OF WORKS – you cannot earn salvation. The Watchtower has lied to you. Paul stated five times in Romans chapter five that salvation is a FREE GIFT.

    Jesus told his disciples that to HAVE eternal life they had to BELIEVE in him nothing more. Works come as a result of salvation. Christians serve God for what he has done for us, we do not serve God to gain salavtion.

    Peter explains clearly that the whole Cosmos will be burnt up at the end of the age: 2Pe 3:7 “But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.”

    Some Christians believe that the abode of heaven will also be made new. A new cosmos and a new heavenly abode. This is because Satan has tainted heaven through his rebellion. Whatever happens this earth will be destroyed.

    Please read again the scripture in Genesis. Jehovah DID speak face to face with Adam and Eve. You cannot say this is a representative. “And they heard the sound of the JEHOVAH GOD walking in the garden in the cool of the day (Genesis 3:8)” – The scripture says that Adam and Eve heard Jehovah walking in the garden. You cannot escape this!

    You ask an interesting question. Who raised Jesus from the dead? Answer:

    1) Jesus raised himself (John 2:19-22):
    Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” The Jews then said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?”
    But he was speaking about the temple of his BODY. When therefore he was RAISED from the DEAD, his disciples remembered that he had said this, and they believed the Scripture and the word that Jesus had spoken.

    2) The Holy Spirit raised Jesus (Romans 8:11):
    “If the Spirit of him who RAISED Jesus from the DEAD dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.”

    3) The Father raised Jesus (Galatians 1:1):
    Paul, an apostle—not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who RAISED him from the DEAD.

    Here you can see that all three persons of the Godhead raised Jesus. That means we have three divine persons – but ONE God – Jehovah.

    Those who do not accept Jesus as Lord and Savior will after the resurrection of the unsaved and final Judgement go into eternal separation. God will have no contact with this abode.

    I’m not sure if I am following your line of reasoning. You say: “To dwell, means He will be with human, not spirit. Not ex-human, when they become spirit. If there are eternal separate, what are they? Human, spirit – good or bad?” – Sorry I’m not sure what you mean?

    All humans will receive a resurrection: Joh 5:28-29 “Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.”

    So all humans will receive eternal resurrection bodies. At the end of the Millennial Kingdom, just before the New Heavens and New earth begin God will Judge the living and the unsaved dead. By this time those who believe in Jesus will already have been resurrected (first resurrection) The unsaved dead will be resurrected to Judgment then be sent into Gehenna – eternally separated (second resurrcetion).

    You asked: “when all human go to heaven in future, the earth will be destroy and new earth will be create, where is other human on new earth? Do you believe you will be on new earth?”

    Answer: When God makes the new heavens and new earth then those who believed in him, his children will live with him. In revelation it says: “Rev 21:2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.” Heaven and earth Join. God comes to earth and lives with man. Read this carefully: Rev 21:3 “And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God.” GOD HIMSELF WILL BE WITH THEM!

    Humans will no longer have mortal bodies like they did before the resurrection. Instead we will take on immortality. Remember that is the promise in the resurrection:

    1Co 15:35 “But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?” – 1Co 15:42-43 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. 1Co 15:49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven. 1Co 15:53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.”

    As you can see those who inhabit the New earth will be immortal. They will not be children of Adam because they will have new immortal bodies. The eternal realm will be like nothing we have ever seen. Truly magnificent made for all saved Christians. You do not have to worry about this earth. Everything here has gone wrong because of Adam and Eve. God has planned to make all things new.

    I hope by now you can see with my use of the Bible that the Bible is supremely important in understanding truth. Correct Bible interpretation is very important.

    You have not told me if you have a personal relationship with Jesus? Do you talk and pray to Jesus?

    Finally the Trinity. I can explain the Trinity if you are truly seeking truth? Do you want to know the real Jesus of scripture? Do you want to understand the Bible? I can help, but I have limited time. If you are truly seeking God then I am happy to talk. Are you beginning to understand? I am praying for you. What is your name?

    God Bless
    Jason

    • That what I mean by work which you mention ‘Works come as a result of salvation’. You used the word works. So, you assume JW definition of work is we work and God will see us as good base of our work only?? I don’t mean that, I mean work as secondary that God will see us primary that what we do is good. He will save us or not, base on our action that connect to Jesus. Ya don’t believe it is our action, but His action from Jesus that save us. Our action is to believe Jesus that is all.

      Please be honest with yourself. The Watchtower teaches that to survive Armageddon and get into the paradise earth you have to work HARD at being a faithful Jehovah’s witness. You have to go knocking on doors, you have to go to all the meetings, you have to do exactly what you are told. You have no free will. You have to WORK to make it to paradise!

      Christians serve God, such as attending Church, preaching, evangelising, etc. BECAUSE we are saved. Our motivation to serve God is because of what he has already done for us. We serve because he HAS saved us. He has declared us righteous because of our faith.

      How do you understand these scriptures? I am quoting from the old NWT:

      Romans 3:28 “For we reckon that a man is DECLARED RIGHTEOUS by FAITH apart from works of the law”

      Romans 4:3 “For what does the scripture say? “Abraham exercised FAITH in Jehovah, and it was COUNTED to him as RIGHTEOUSNESS” Now to the man that works the pay is counted, NOT as an undeserved kindness, but as a debt. On the other hand, to the man that DOES NOT WORK but PUTS FAITH in him who DECLARES the ungodly as RIGHTEOUS, his faith is COUNTED AS RIGHTEOUSNESS”

      To paraphrase Pauls words “But if a man irrespective of his work, has faith in him who justifies the sinful, then that man’s FAITH is counted as righteousness, that is the gift of God” (Philips translation)

      Romans 4:14, 16 “For if those who adhere to law are heirs, FAITH HAS BEEN MADE USELESS and the promise has been abolished… On this account it was as a result of FAITH, that it might be according to UNDESERVED KINDNESS, in order for the promise to be sure to all his seed”

      To paraphrase “The whole thing, then, is a matter of FAITH on man’s part and generosity on God’s” (Philips translation)

      Romans 5:1 “Therefore, now that we HAVE BEEN DECLARED RIGHTEOUS as a result of FAITH, key us enjoy peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have GAINED our approach by FAITH INTO this UNDESERVED KINDNESS in which we NOW stand; and let us exult, based on hope of the glory of God”

      To paraphrase “Since then it is by FAITH we are justified, let us grasp the fact that we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have confidently entered into this new relationship of grace, and here we take our stand, in happy certainty of the glorious things he has for us in the future” (Philips translation)

      Romans 5:18-19 “So, then through ONE trespass the result to men of all sorts was condemnation, likewise also through ONE ACT OF JUSTIFICATION the result to men of ALL SORTS is a DECLARING of them as RIGHTEOUS for life. For just as through the disobedience of the one man many were constituted sinners, likewise also through the obedience of the one [person] many will be CONSTITUTED RIGHTEOUS”

      To paraphrase “For in one case one man’s sin brought its inevitable judgement, and the result was condemnation. But, in the other, countless men’s sins are met with the FREE GIFT of GRACE, and the result is JUSTIFICATION before God (Philips translation)

      PLEASE be honest. You said “He will save us or not, base on our action that connect to Jesus.” In your own words you are saved or not because of ACTIONS. In other words your actions which are works are needed to gain God’s approval!

      It is heartbreaking that Jehovah’s witnesses have been lied to. They have no concept of being declared righteous through faith. Instead they work in the hope that they might make it through Armageddon into a paradise earth. This is not a Biblical teaching. PLEASE read again the scriptures above from your own NWT! FAITH = JUSTIFICATION. FAITH = BEING DECLARED RIGHTEOUS.

      Ok, so you believe we have mortal body now. Where are the dead now?? You don’t believe in annihilation, but believe eternal separate. Why do you say we have mortal bodies?

      I understand that Jehovah’s witness do not believe in the tripartite nature of man. You believe (like atheists) that at death the person ceases to exist.

      However the Bible is very clear that humans are not just flesh and bone. You as a person do not just exist in your mind you exist as software. Let me use the analogy of a computer. A computer has an outer case. It has internal mechanical parts and a hard drive. This we might call the physical part of the computer. However for the computer to work it needs software and electricity. The software is invisible and weighs nothing. Yet it is the software that makes the computer alive. We might liken the software to the immaterial part of man, his spirit or soul.

      If man has a soul then the death of the body separates the soul from the body. Please read these scriptures from your revised NWT:

      Ecclesiastes 12:7 “Then the dust returns to the earth, just as it was, and the spirit (nephesh) returns to the true God who gave it.”

      1 Kings 17:21-22 “Then he stretched himself out over the child three times and called out to Jehovah: “O Jehovah my God, please, let this child’s life (nephesh/soul) come back into him. Jehovah listened to E·li′jah’s request, and the life (nephesh/soul) of the child came back into him, and he revived.”

      1 Corinthians 5:4-5 “When you are gathered together in the name of our Lord Jesus, and knowing that I am with you in spirit along with the power of our Lord Jesus, you must hand such a man over to Satan+ for the destruction of the flesh (sarx/body), so that the spirit (soul/pneuma) may be saved in the day of the Lord.”

      2 Corinthians 5:1, 8-9 “For we know that if our earthly house, this tent (body), should be torn down, we are to have a building from God, a house (new body) not made with hands, everlasting in the heavens… We are of good courage and would prefer to be absent (away from) from the body (sarx) and to make our home with the Lord. So whether at home with him or absent from him, we make it our aim to be acceptable to him.”

      A more accurate translation is: “Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body (sarx) and at home with the Lord.” (ESV)

      In other words the early Christians understood that life as a disembodied spirit existed after physical death. This means for all Christians after death they would be at home (in heaven) with the Lord as disembodied spirits.

      In the OT (hebrew scriptures) it describes the souls of the dead as “shades” or “rephaim” Again please read your own revised NWT:

      Psalm 88:10 “Will you perform wonders for the dead (mooth)? Can those powerless in death (rephaim) rise up to praise you?

      Please note the meaning here is obscured by the english word “dead” – in hebrew two different words are used. Firstly mooth is used which means simply “dead”, but then the psalmist uses the word rephaim which refers to dead spirits, or shades. The immaterial part of man.

      Isaiah 14:9 “Even the Grave (sheol) underneath is stirred up
      To meet you when you come. Because of you, it awakens those powerless in death (Rephaim) , All the oppressive leaders of the earth. It makes all the kings of the nations rise from their thrones.”

      A more accurate translation of the hebrew is: “Sheol beneath is stirred up to meet you when you come; it rouses the shades/rephaim to greet you, all who were leaders of the earth; it raises from their thrones all who were kings of the nations.” (ESV)

      This language portrays life after death. At death a person does not cease to exist, but who they are, their software moves on to the place the Bible calls the abode of the dead i.e. Sheol. This is NOT simply the grave of dead physical bodies. Sheol is a real abode for the unsaved disembodies souls/spirits of the dead.

      Both groups those in heaven and those in sheol await the resurrection of the dead when each group will be given immortal bodies.

      From your revised NWT 1 Corinthians 15:51-53: “Look! I tell you a sacred secret: We will not all fall asleep in death, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the blink of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound,and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we will be changed. For this which is corruptible must put on incorruption, and this which is mortal must put on immortality. But when this which is corruptible puts on incorruption and this which is mortal puts on immortality”

      Scripture cannot be clearer. At the resurrection when Jesus creates new bodies these bodies will be immortal. The old corrupt body will be replaced by a new immortal body.

      Please read 1 Corinthians chapter 15 to understand this properly.

      What you say is opposite because immortal bodies mean can’t die, and mortal bodies mean can die. So, non-annihilation or eternal separate. Annihilation as mortal bodies as into nothing. So, where are eternal separate people??

      I have explained this above. At the death of the body the soul/spirit of the unsaved dead goes into Sheol, while the souls/spirit of the saved dead go to heaven. Both groups await the resurrection. The unsaved eventually enter eternal separation in Gehenna the saved group enters first the Millennial Kingdom then after the thousand years they enter the New Heavens and New earth.

      So, on new earth, God will be literally with human. But you mention human are not children of Adam, ya mean literally?? Where are human coming from? All born from Adam to next generation and side-generation. Directly son of Adam and Indirectly son’s brother of Adam.

      The Bible does not explain what the new earth will be like, nor what kind of bodies we have. All we know is that saved believers receive an immortal body for life in the New Heavens and New earth. Our old bodies which came from the line of Adam will be long gone! The Bible describes believers as a new creation. We have no connection with the old Adam, we are now born again into the new Adam Jesus. I await a new immortal body at the resurrection!

      Please try not to think of the new earth as a copy of this earth. We do not know what it will be like. All we know is that God i.e. Jesus will once again dwell with men as he did at his first advent.

      Read the revised NWT: Revelation 21:3 “With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them.”

      Then what does it means God can’t see human and live, so that scripture is a lie.

      The Bible does not lie. No man can see the full glory of God.

      Read the revised NWT 1 Timothy 6:14-16: “I give you orders to observe the commandment in a spotless and irreprehensible way until the manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ, which the happy and only Potentate will show in its own appointed times. He is the King of those who rule as kings and Lord of those who rule as lords, the one alone having immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal might. Amen.”

      However the Bible does say that God has walked on earth in Eden (Genesis 3:8), talked with Abraham (Genesis 18:1), and will be in the New Heavens and New Earth (Revelation 21:3). How can this be? The only answer is to understand that God the Father dwells in unapproachable light. But he has revealed himself to man through the Word of God – Jesus (John 1:1, 14, 18). Most Christians understand the OT appearances of God on earth to be a Christophony – a pre-incarnate appearance of Jesus. If this is true then Jesus must be God.

      Read the revised NWT John 1:18: “No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him.”

      Please notice Jesus is called a God. In Greek the word is the same for the Father Theos. Jesus the unique God, the son, cam ego earth to explain (exegete) the Father. That is how we can see God through and in Jesus!

      What is your understanding about Trinity? So, God is not God as a person, but a group name of three God. Jesus the son, Holy Spirit, and Jehovah the father. Group name is Jehovah?

      This is a very complex subject. I believe the LORD is slowly revelling himself to you. Don’t get too bogged down with the Trinity. I have to believe what the scriptures teach, Jesus is God, the Father is God and the Holy Spirit is God. Together they are ONE true God, NOT three gods! The equation is 1x1x1 = 1.

      Don’t get mixed up with the name Jehovah. This should be viewed as a surname. Jesus-Jehovah, Father-Jehovah, Holy Spirit-Jehovah. BUT NOT THREE JEHOVAH’s! We have THREE PERSONS who share the nature of God. All three are surnamed Jehovah/I AM. Just like you and I are humans we share the same nature but we are different people.

      I understand this very hard for a Jehovahs witness to understand because you have been told that only the Father is Jehovah. This is not what the Bible teaches. Jesus comes IN THE NAME of the Father, revised NWT 37-38, 43-44:

      “And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me.+ You have neither heard his voice at any time nor seen his form,+ 38 and you do not have his word residing in you, because you do not believe the very one whom he sent… I have come IN THE NAME of my Father, but you do not receive me. If someone else came in his own name, you would receive that one. How can you believe, when you are accepting glory from one another and you are not seeking the glory that is from the only God?”

      SEEK JESUS – Then you will know the Fathers love for you!

      Does it matter that bible make sense to you, or don’t make sense to you or don’t matter which one?

      The Bible does make sense, it is complicated for you because you read the bible using the watchtower doctrines. If you just read the Bible alone, God will reveal himself to you. Why not try this? Read the Gospel of John without the Watchtowers glasses and ask WHO IS JESUS. And definitely use a different Bible translation!

      What you say in opposite to your statement bible interpret of bible because bible don’t say Trinity or at least meaning of trinity, which people invent the word trinity to match the definition of trinity. The definition of trinity is three God as one Group God. And the meaning of God is same all over for trinity.

      Sadly you have repeated what the Watchtower has told you. I agree the word Trinity is not in the Bible, but then neither is the name Jehovah, or Organisation, or Governing Body.

      In the Bible are embryonic signs which point to Jesus as deity/God and also point to the Holy Spirit as deity/God. We cannot ignore this. The only solution is to understand God as a triune being. God is plural in his unity. That is how the doctrine of the Trinity developed. However we DO NOT believe in THREE GODS!

      One scripture can have different right meaning. So, it is not easily to interpret the bible accuracy but the most important is logic and understanding that would help you in bible interpret. Not jump conclusion or accept people’s conclusion.

      I have never accepted mans conclusions about the Bible. That’s why I’m no longer a Jehovah’s witness! I follow Jesus. Also the Bible never speaks about “logic” – Logic is a Greek philosophy – created by men! The Bible says to understand it you must have the following:

      Revised NWT 1 Corinthians 2:11-14 “For who among men knows the things of a man except the man’s spirit within him? So, too, no one has come to know the things of God except the spirit of God. Now we received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit that is from God, so that we might know the things that have been kindly given us by God. These things we also speak, not with words taught by human wisdom, but with those taught by the spirit, as we explain spiritual matters with spiritual words.
      14 But a physical man does not accept the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot get to know them, because they are examined spiritually.”

      Revised NWT John 14:26, 16:13-15: “But the helper, the holy spirit, which the Father will send in my name, that one will teach you all things and bring back to your minds all the things I told you… However, when that one comes, the spirit of the truth, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak of his own initiative, but what he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things to come. That one will glorify me,+ because he will receive from what is mine and will declare it to you. All the things that the Father has are mine. That is why I said he receives from what is mine and declares it to you.

      As you can see in the scripture it is the SPIRIT OF GOD who illuminates and opens up scripture to us – He teaches us NOT MANS LOGIC! However I admit that God does use logic and scholarship as part of learning, but these are not the primary tools through which we obtain spiritual understanding.

      You mention JW is wrong because they change it, they do change because of increase understanding. You assume bible is easy and will understand everything right away?? Changes include in everything, include the bible. That don’t mean change the bible, but change to match the bible because of more info to make you understand and/or study the bible more deep. That include flip-flop.

      I do not assume the Bible is easy to understand. The Bible is a complex book written over many centuries. However the key to unlocking it is first knowing your Saviour! Without his guidance we will seek explanations of men.

      I am sorry but I cannot except flip-flop doctrines. This talk is simply JW excuses. Just look candidly at Watchtower history. It is filled with changed doctrines, changed dates, etc… How can they teach Jesus returned in 1874 for over 50 years then just say they got it wrong? How can they teach that the 1914 Generation would witness the end of the world, and teach this for 60 years or more, then say they have got it wrong! Crazy!

      You think your religious never change and been the same since the beginning? When your religious form? You think JW do change?

      I am not part of a religion. I am part of a family, the family of God. God’s family is not a religion. I have been adopted into that family, revised NWT:

      1 John 1:1-2a “See what sort of love the Father has given us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are. That is why the world does not know us, because it has not come to know him. Beloved ones, we are now children of God”

      That is the prospect offered by Jehovah. To become a child of God! Are you a child of God?

      Yes I call myself a Christian and I have beliefs which may differ slightly from other Christians however together Christians adhere to the same orthodox truths as the Apostles and Church Fathers. We believe in the same core truths, these have never changed!

      So, you believe heaven will be destroy and create new heaven, same as new earth. Because old earth and old heaven is tinted with devil. So, need to be replace to put new heaven and new earth.

      So, the process will be most human will go to heaven and old earth will be destroy, then new earth is create, all human from heaven will go to new earth?? When old heaven get destroy??

      Are human in heaven now or still dead?? You believe when person died, they immediately go to heaven, same process since first parent?

      I have answered these questions above. Please re-read.

      Basically you say JW do lie about paradise earth, but you mention new earth. So, it is paradise new earth. JW is about paradise current earth.

      If you want to call the New earth Paradise then I have no problem with that. Revelation calls the new earth the Paradise of God (Revelation 2:7). However let us be clear, this paradise is NOT a restored earth as Jehovahs witnesses teach but a completely new earth, new heavens, new cosmos.

      Can you list process of your belief?? My process that JW believe is all human on earth since beginning, but few people go to heaven to be with Jesus. So, it changes little bit since Adam rebels so since first Adam to all human on earth but no spirit as ex-human. Until Jesus came down, so few people will be ex-human with Jesus. 144,000 forever (time of start of 144,000 is 1914) and other human on earth forever (time of start of human on earth forever is after Armageddon)

      I know your beliefs well. Here is short chronology of what the Bible teaches, some things I have missed out. I have chosen concepts that I think will help you.

      1) Creation of physical heavens and earth
      3) Creation of Adam and Eve
      4) The fall of Adam and Eve (through satan)
      5) The entry of sin and death into the human race
      6) Spiritual separation from God. Direct relationship lost.
      7) Noahs Flood
      8) Babel
      9) Election of Israel
      10) Coming of Messiah (incarnate God)
      11) Death, Burial, Resurrection of Messiah
      12) Salvation in Christ through faith
      13) At death saved souls go to heaven
      14) At death unsaved souls go to Sheol
      15) Both groups await a bodily resurrection
      16) Consummation of the Age, in two parts:
      a) 1st Resurrection (saved people), Great Tribulation, Millennial Kingdom, restoration of Israel, return of Christ to earth.
      b) end of Millennium, 2nd resurrection (unsaved people) final judgement and separation of unsaved into abode of Gehenna along with Satan and fallen angels.
      17) Destruction of this earth, heavens/cosmos.
      18) Creation of new Heavens and New earth, full restoration of fellowship between man and God. Eternal realm begins. New Jerusalem (God’s abode) comes down from heaven and (Jesus) dwells with man eternally.

      If Adam haven’t rebel, what would happen? Do Adam have moral body or immoral body?

      This is a hypothetical question. If no rebellion occurred than Adam would never die, nor would his offspring. The Bible does not explain what kind of body Adam had. All we know is his body changed after he sinned so that it eventually broke down and he died. I think Adam had an immortal body. Why would God give Adam and Eve bodies that could be damaged? It would make no sense to God’s statement in Genesis 1:31 “After that God saw everything he had made, and look! it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, a sixth day.”

      There is no pray to Jesus, but to Jehovah, but it is depends on Jesus.”

      Did you know the Apostles worshiped Jesus? Did you know that by using the name Jesus in prayer we are invoking his name as equal to the Father? From revised NWT:

      Matthew 2:11 “And when they went into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and falling down, they did obeisance”

      Matthew 14:33 “Then those in the boat did obeisance to him, saying: “You really are God’s Son.”

      Matthew 28:9 “And look! Jesus met them and said: “Good day!” They approached and took hold of his feet and did obeisance”

      John 20:27-28 “Next he said to Thomas: “Put your finger here, and see my hands, and take your hand and stick it into my side, and stop doubting but believe.” In answer Thomas said to him: “My LORD (Jehovah) and my God!”

      Please note Thomas called Jesus LORD (kyrios/YHWH) and GOD (theos) – Thomas did not recognise Jesus as an angel or created being but called Jesus divine, deity!

      Also the word obeisance in Greek means WORSHIP!

      προσκυνέωa: to express by attitude and possibly by position one’s allegiance to and regard for deity—‘to prostrate oneself in worship, to bow down and worship, to worship.

      Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Vol. 1: Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: Based on semantic domains (electronic ed. of the 2nd edition.) (539). New York: United Bible Societies.

      Please note the statement above is made by the United Bible Society, the very same organisation that produces the Nestle-Aland master text which the revised NWT uses!

      See: http://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/appendix-a/how-the-bible-came-to-us/#?insight%5Bsearch_id%5D=6a70e39e-47d4-4d65-982f-0942e2bb78fe&insight%5Bsearch_result_index%5D=0

      For more details on worship of Jesus see:
      http://www.gotquestions.org/worship-Jesus.html

      Do what we have is more simple than Adam did?? Adam did rebel and sin and we just believe in Jesus and live. What is your definition of believe?

      I have already explained belief in our discussion. To believe in Jesus is more than to give mental accent to an idea. To truly believe in Jesus you must accept him as LORD (Jehovah) and Savior of your life. Belief is a product of faith. Saving faith in Jesus guarantees eternal life in heaven with him, followed by life in the Millennial Kingdom, followed by life in the New Heavens and New earth!

      Romans 10:9 revised NWT “For if you publicly declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and exercise faith in your heart that God raised him up from the dead, you will be saved.”

      Paul directly quotes here from Joel 2:32 revised NWT which reads “And everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved”

      Can you see what Paul has done? He has taken attributes of Jehovah and applied them to Jesus. Paul is saying Jesus is Jehovah!

      Watch this explanation:

      What kind of heaven that will be destroy?? It is heaven that is above earth or heaven where God live?

      Your final question is hardest, it really has no answer. The scriptures for me are clear that the physical earth and heavens above the earth – universe – will be destroyed and replaced by a new heavens and new earth. However concerning the abode of God – heaven – the Bible is not clear whether this is simply cleansed of evil (Satan/demons) or if this abode is replaced. Either way its not important. What is important is to know that the abode of God will merge with the abode of earth. Consequently the heavenly New Jersualem – God’s heavenly dwelling place – that will merge with the New Heavens and new earth. (cf. Rev 21:1, 17)

      Listen to the words of Isaiah 51:6 revised NWT:

      “Raise your eyes to the heavens,
      And look at the earth below.
      For the heavens will disperse in fragments like smoke;
      The earth will wear out like a garment,
      And its inhabitants will die like gnats.
      But my salvation will be eternal,
      And my righteousness will never fail.”

      We share in that salvation glory eternally! Colossians 2:3-4 Revised NWT:

      “Keep your minds fixed on the things above, not on the things on the earth.For you died, and your life has been hidden with the Christ in union with God. When the Christ, our life, is made manifest, then you also will be made manifest with him in glory.”

      Praise God!

      God bless
      Jason

  8. WOW! lots more questions. That is good. I just want to say I’m not your enemy, I am your friend and want to help you be set free in Jesus. I know what I have written is hard to take in, but please persevere, Jesus may be using this conversation to reveal himself to you. I am praying for your salvation.

    If I may before I answer your new questions, may I ask have you been a Jehovah’s witness for long? What is your background? Also it would be good to know your name? Is that OK?

    Jason

  9. I have answered your questions in your last post. I have written in bold text between your questions. Jason

    • I am Khalif Foster. I am not baptized, but go to Kingdom Hall. I am deaf, so can use video with CC, manually closed caption not automatically cc, because manually is more accurate.

      Nice to meet you Khalif. If you don’t mind me asking what is your religious background? How did you meet the Jehovah’s witnesses?

      Ya use the math wrong, for 1 * 1 * 1 = 1. Because * is a shortcut to add. So, why not put 1 + 1 + 1, but you would say it is wrong because it is not three Gods, but one God. So, it can be 1 + 0 + 0 = 1. Right? You mention trinity is very complex and not bogged down meaning don’t get stuck or try to understand. So, God will revealed to us that mean we will understand in future?? So, you don’t understand either.

      I appreciate my words may appear ambiguous, however the scriptures clearly show that both the Son, Father and Holy Spirit are divine. We cannot have three gods because the Bible states their is only one God. The only explanation is that the one God is expressed in three persons. Each unique, but because they are all eternal and of the same substance we conclude that together they are the one true God Jehovah. I have listed many examples above for you.

      If you truly want to make sure the JW’s have a correct understanding of who Jesus is then I would suggest further research by yourself on the subject of the nature of God. Unfortunately my time is limited. I am in the middle of a degree course, Pastor a local Church, writes blogs, have a family, and run a business! So as you can see my time is in short supply! Therefore if its OK with you rather than writing lots, I’ll provide links which delve into the subjects that interest you in more detail.

      For the Trinity:

      http://carm.org/trinity
      http://carm.org/what-trinity
      http://carm.org/christianity/christian-doctrine/another-look-trinity

      Ultimately you must let the scriptures speak to you by the illumination of the spirit. Try not to read the Bible through the doctrines of the Watchtower.

      You say you have to accept the scripture, so you don’t have to understand the scripture. Because it is not three God, but three person. So, what is your definition of God? Jesus is not God, but minor God as prove Jehovah’s Witnesses, right. If not, then Jesus is infinite God. Not finite god. But God mean infinite by your use the word Jesus is God,

      Jesus is an infinite God. Read the scriptures:

      Isaiah 9:6 “For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”

      The Word of God, the Son of God becomes Jesus. He is called here El Gabbor MIGHTY GOD. Also EVERLASTING which means eternal. If Jesus is not God please provide scriptures to prove his creation as a creature.

      A lot of your Bible questions can be answered at this website:
      http://www.gotquestions.org/search.php?zoom_query=jesus+God&search.x=0&search.y=0

      Jehovah is a group noun, not a person. So, Jehovah is neither God, but a group God as a Godhead that group three God, but you mention not three God, but three person. Like a house is a group noun that group human inside. But house is not human, but a house. Jehovah is Godhead. So, person and God are not the same. What do person mean to you and God mean to you?

      Again we have to be clear with terms. God is the eternal, creator. If Jesus, the Holy Spirit and the Father are called God, eternal and creator, then I have to submit to that truth. We have three persons in one God.

      Definition:
      https://www.ccel.org/creeds/nicene.creed.html

      If you can understand the trinity because you say Bible make sense to you, then you can explain to me by process. Logic by your definition is from man as what man understand, but what man understand is same as another different man, they both understand separately, not by that person told another person. But what make sense. So, man logic is temporary logic, but God logic is infinite logic because what He creates, we only pre-create what we have is the ability to create base the process (ability to create). We don’t create children, but thru process we can create children. So, it is pre-create. Not directly create.

      I’m not sure what you are trying to say here. Jesus is not a creature nor was he created that makes him God. Again please show me where Jesus was created in scripture.

      If you agree with the Watchtower that Jesus is a lesser god “a” god or divine then you are quibbling with words. In the Greek text the statement in John 1 is emphatic the WORD (Jesus) IS GOD. If you say he is a lesser god then you actually have two gods which is polytheism. You have a similar multi-gods problem!

      We understand the process and logic. So, a child is logic, but the process is thru sex, but it is thru another process of directly from God which He give us the ability. Ability is a process. So, it all connects to bigger process, to infinity process. So, a child make sense base what we understand how to make a child. A child make sense because we know what is a child. Basically, logic, process, and sense all link together.

      Again I’m not sure what you are trying to tell me. I admit logic exists although as I stated it is not the means by which we understand the Bible. We understand the Bible through 1) Holy Spirit 2) Its self revelation.

      You used to be JW, you were baptized? What JW don’t make sense to you? You say you can’t accept flip-flop which mean to you that God changes His mind, but God doesn’t change, right? If you view that, it is not flip-flop as from God, but from human. For example, JW use flip-flop for who will be back to life from two cities that was destroyed during Lot’s time. It is not base on God process, but human process. But God process do not have flip-flop, but process as better understanding. Earlier years they believe that time as different time, later years, that time was later, and even more later. So, that is process. So, later years do not use earlier year as from God. So, 1874, 1914, 1975, and so on. It is process. Not back to old years. 1874 to 1914 to 1874.

      No you are very wrong here. Truth is not a process. Truth is Truth. The Watchtower has made false statements and false claims causing untold misery to millions of people. How would you feel if you had spent your whole life preaching from 1874-1914 being promised that in 1914 you would enter a Paradise earth and then it never comes? How would you feel if you were a young person in 1925 and you were told “Millions now living will never die” so you give your whole life to the Watchtower, you don’t get married, then you find your in your 80’s – you have grown old – the end never came. The Watchtower is an apocalyptic nightmare scaring people into service with false dates and false doctrines. The whole idea of “new light” and “process” is a watchtower coverup for its innumerable errors. If you still don’t believe me you owe it to yourself to read the following two books written by former Governing Body member Ray Franz. If anyone should know the inner workings of the Watchtower then he’s your man!

      http://khazarzar.skeptik.net/books/franz01.pdf

      https://www.watchtowerlies.com/linked/in_search_of_christian_freedom_franz.pdf

      Remember truth is not a process – Truth is a person:

      Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”

      Please think carefully about this verse. Jesus did not say the Watchtower is the truth, he did not say Islam is the truth or any other religious system, he said I AM THE TRUTH. Even more profound Jesus said HE IS THE WAY and THE LIFE! How can Jesus be life or give life unless he is God? Can an angel give life? Finally Jesus says to know the Father you must first know the Son. I urge you to get to know Jesus.

      Since it is process base on God action then it is right, but if is it is flip-flop base on man’s assume which no certainly from bible, like two cities destroyed from Lot’s then it can be wrong because God didn’t tell them, but God did tell them about 1914 and so on by series process of figure it out. God do make it complex, but complex in a simple way meaning there is a process to understand the complex.

      Again you are not looking at the bare facts. The Watchtower’s ideas are mens ideas they are not from God or from the Bible. 1914 is a classic example.

      Incidentally it was the lie of 1914 that made me see that the Watchtower organisation is NOT Jehovah’s organisation nor will it ever be! If you truly want to understand 1914 then again I urge you to read the following book:

      https://www.watchtowerlies.com/linked/the-gentile-times-reconsidered.pdf

      What is the reason you not accept JW?? Because it is harder work, not easier work like you have now; or harder to understand or easier to understand? You feel connect to your faith now because it is just believe in Jesus as JUSTIFICATION. Jesus’ body is corrupt or non-corrupt? We have corrupt body that why we sin, so Jesus die for us, so we are justification for new body which it is incorruptible. We are SANCTIFICATION. So, we have corrupt body, but our soul is not corrupt, so we will be connect to Jesus on new heaven and new earth or both.

      I have explained my scriptural position very clearly in my posts above. I have quoted scripture after scripture which are very clear but you are rejecting these facts because you prefer to listen to what the Watchtower has told you. I cannot do any more to show you that salvation is a free gift.

      Being a true Christian is not a easy root! Jesus told his followers to “Pick up their cross and follow him” that is what I am now doing, following Jesus, not men or an organisation. I am working harder now for the LORD than I ever did as a Jehovah’s witness. Why? Because I know my LORD and and know what he has done for me, how he has saved me and changed me. It is wonderful!

      As a Jehovahs witness I thought I was serving God but really I was serving the Society. The society is a monstrous organisation taking in people at one end then spitting them out at the other. Thousands are marginalised each year. The only way to stay right with the JW’s to be in the “in crowd” – to be very very busy, loyal and obedient. An automaton is a good word for a JW. If this is not your experience then just wait long enough and you will either see it or experience it!

      Just we hearty believe in Jesus, but no action on our part. Just believe strongly that you know for sure you believe in Jesus and be save?

      I know I am saved because that’s what Jesus promised! At re-birth the Holy spirit confirms within us we are Children of God. That is my experience.

      John 6:40 “For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should HAVE eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

      John 6:47 “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes HAS eternal life.”

      John 10:28 “I GIVE THEM eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.”

      John 3:3 “Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

      John 3:7 “Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.”

      How much clear can the scriptures be? You are not born again (yet) because you have not placed your trust and faith in Jesus. You trust faith and hope is in the Watchtower. Your hope is that the Watchtower has the truth and can lead you to eternal life. They cannot only Jesus can.

      John 5:39 “You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me”

      You need to submit your life to Jesus! I can only point the way and keep praying for you. Its up to you to test everything that you have been taught and double check that you are right. Your eternal destiny is at stake.

      Why do people are unsaved?? It is easily to believe in Jesus and be save. So, it would make sense all human will be save, but they are not, so they are unsaved so transfer to Gehenna, after back to life on new earth, then they don’t believe so they are eternal separate to Gehenna.

      People have a choice. Remember that all humans are separated from God in a spiritual sense through Adam’s sin. The only way they can be reconciled is to accept Jesus. At first glance I agree that if salvation is so easy all people should be saved. But they are not. Most (like yourself) reject the plain truth of scripture. Most people prefer to stay separated from God.

      Can you expand your list of process of your belief?? 16 a) and b). So,

      16) Consummation of the Age, in two parts:
      a) 1st Resurrection (saved people), Great Tribulation, Millennial Kingdom, restoration of Israel, return of Christ to earth.
      b) end of Millennium, 2nd resurrection (unsaved people) final judgement and separation of unsaved into abode of Gehenna along with Satan and fallen angels.

      These are massive subjects. Unlike the Watchtower literature Christians scholars go into immense depth with these subjects, soteriology, chronology, eschatology, demonology, angelology, etc.

      My position is known as “dispensational” which means I accept that upon the return of Jesus he will set up his Kingdom on earth, rule as King of the Jews, restore his people Israel and rule for one thousand years on this earth.

      Just prior to Jesus return the earth will experience the Great Tribulation. I believe there will be survivors of this time of wrath whom will inhabit this earth governed by Jesus.

      It is important to note that at Jesus return he will come back with his born-again children. In other words Christians! By this time the first resurrection will have taken place and believers will return to this earth to help rule mankind.

      It is simple:

      1) The disembodied spirits of true believers go to heaven at death (Philippians 3:20).
      2) At some point in History Jesus will gather his true believers from this earth and from heaven. All will meet in the clouds, then return to heaven. At this moment as the scriptures show all believers will be changed and receive immortal bodies. (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18)
      3) On this earth will commence the out pouring of Gods wrath. A 3.5 year tribulation period (Revelation 11:2-3)
      4) After the tribulation Jesus will return to separate the sheep from the goats (earths inhabitants, i.e humans not the redeemed). Those whom he deems worthy of his kingdom will enter the thousand year reign of Christ, which is on this earth. (Matthew 25:32)
      5) Those believers in heaven return with Jesus to rule the earth with him. We become co-rulers on this earth. (Revelation 5:10)
      6) This earth experiences a restoration. Peace etc. However it is still tainted with sin. (Matthew 19:28)
      7) God’s promises to his ancient people Israel are fulfilled. Israel becomes the channel through which blessing pour out to the Nations of earth. (Romans 11:29)
      8) At the end of the thousand years humans (not born agin believers, we have already been tested!) will be tested through the release of satan. (Revelation 20:7-8)
      9) At the end of the millennium the unsaved dead who are in Sheol will be resurrected to life, Judged and excommunicated in Gehenna. This will be the eternal dwelling place of the unsaved. (Revelation 20:12-15)
      10) God will then destroy this earth and the universe and create a New Heavens and New earth. (2 Peter 3:10, Revelation 21:1)
      11) The new earth/cosmos will merge with heaven itself and God (Jesus) will rule directly over all his creation. (Revelation 21:2)
      12) The goal is to bring creation back into right relationship with God – what was lost in eden. (1 John 1:1-3)

      That mean during the 1st Resurrection which mean old earth will be destroyed, all human will go to heaven. That is called millennial kingdom? Or you believe old earth will be empty for 1000 years while human are in heaven, then end of 1000 years, unsaved people will be on old earth to be saved or go directly to Gehenna?

      I think I have answered these questions above.

      Why would unsaved be resurrection?

      The unsaved are resurrected to Judgement. Remember what the scripture says:

      John 5:28-29 “Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.”

      Please note the unsaved are resurrected to Judgement, that Judgement takes place at the end of the millennial Kingdom. The JW’s teach that the dead will be resurrected during the Millennium. There is absolutely no proof of this in scripture. Remember the final Judgement for the unsaved is not destruction but eternal separation from God’s prescence.

      More answers here:
      http://www.gotquestions.org/search.php?zoom_query=ressurection

      How would unsaved know Jesus? All other human are in heaven already? So, can ya expand it more and make it clear in process to 17). All human from beginning of time, went to heaven after they believe in Jesus, and all human from beginning of time went to Sheol after not believe in Jesus. When I say Jesus I mean before Jesus came to earth. But unsaved will be saved again in future. Saved that is from heaven will be on earth, new earth or old earth?

      No those who never knew God will not get a second chance. The unsaved remain in Sheol during the millennial kingdom. At the end of the millennial kingdom when the second resurrection begins they will be Judged. Remember humans deserve only death and separation. We have no right to life. That’s why we cannot earn life!

      God foreknows his children, he knows in advance who will and who will not be saved. Ultimately salvation comes from God. Humans before Jesus who came to know the true God are also eternally saved. They indirectly put faith in the ransom sacrifice of Jesus. You see to know the God of Israel (before the incarnation) is to know Jesus. Now however all people (including Jews) must confess Jesus as LORD in order to know the true God

      So, we have mortal body, but immoral soul, in future we will have immoral body with immoral soul.

      The word immortal has many interpretations. Much comes from outside the Bible, which is not acceptable. Ultimately immortality is a gift from God but we should not see immortality as being equal to God. He alone is truly immortal. We derive our immortality from him.

      But to answer your question at the moment we have a mortal body which dies. However “who” we “are” our essence or soul lives on after death either in Sheol or Heaven. The Bible does not describe the soul as immortal, although many believe it is. The only description of human immortality in the Bible is when the disembodied soul gets a new body at the resurrection. At this point we become as before a complete unit and immortal.

      Adam used to have immoral body before. But he did died, so his body was not immoral otherwise he won’t die at all for any reason. So, he had moral body. If Adam had immoral body, but he did died, that means in future we can died in immoral body. But immoral soul are not dead, but alive.

      The Bible does not explain what kind of body Adam had. If it was immortal it was conditional immortality dependent on obedience to Gods commands. This would make sense. Why would God give Adam a body that was fragile and easily damaged?

      You are not sure which heaven or both will be replace. Heaven that God live or heaven that we live. Or both will be replace.

      We can be sure that this earth and the heavens above this earth will be destroyed and replaced. The abode of God – heaven – may be simply cleansed or replaced. The Bible does not say.

      So, it will be literal new create same as Genesis of first chapter. Why would God create new earth and heaven of human? And probably heaven of God?

      As I have explained this cosmos has been tainted with Sin. It needs replacing. There are some Christians who believe this earth will be renewed not replaced but I do not see this in scripture. Peter is very clear this cosmos will be dissolved.

      So, you look at all scripture literally.

      In exegesis the first step is to read the text literally unless the context demands otherwise. You believe in a literal Eden? But you deny the literal walking about of Jehovah in the garden. Why? Adam and Eve you take literal but Jehovah you spiritualise. This cannot be done in the context.

      But you look at scripture which say when person die, but the person is not dead, but live on as spirit. So, it is not literally.

      Again you misunderstand my position. I accept when a person dies the body is dead because that is what the scriptures state and that is what we all experience. Likewise I believe in life after death because that is what the Bible teaches and that is what we experience. I have written on this subject. Please see my blog:

      https://watchtowerinvestigated.co.uk/2014/04/05/reasoning-from-the-scriptures-review-soul-by-jason-wright/

      Other you look at literally. So, you look in literally and non-literally, but what you read can be wrong. How you are sure that you are right?

      No exegesis begins with a literal understanding and only changes if the context demands spiritualisation. It is the Watchtower that Spiritualises many literal truths such as life after death, Israel, and Jesus bodily resurrection. I do not pick and choose I let the scriptures speak for themselves

      After all, you just have you and your bible that is all. You don’t teach, but read the bible and believe. But you use the bible to me. So, you don’t mind not teaching me and tell me use the bible and believe the bible. You believe if I use the bible I will believe the same as you do? You believe everything what you believe is from the bible, without people that help you and use the bible with you. Just you alone?

      The Bible is our ultimate source of written revelation. I believe if you read the Bible alone without any preconceived ideas then according to Gods will and purpose you will understand the same things as the Church has taught since the time of the Apostles. You will believe the orthodox truth of Christianity. These truths are what we would call the essential core doctrines of the Christian faith.

      I do admit that in areas outside of cardinal truth the Church may have different opinions. These are areas that have no bearing on salvation but are what we call non-essentials. The main point to remember is the focus of scripture is on your salvation and relationship with God. Understanding everything else is secondary. I have explained lots of “things” but it is your salvation and relationship with Jesus that is paramount. Knowing about the millennium etc. will not save you, knowing Jesus will!

      Or it doesn’t matter what faith to believe except just believe in Jesus that is all and will be save. It is that simple, then I believe Jesus is real and you believe that I am safe right, right now?

      Being born again is a very personal intimate experience. Salvation is ultimately between you and God. Maybe this video might help? I hope you will be able to translate it:

      Why you don’t assume JW are right? Then later after you left JW, you believe different that is trinity. JW and you have literally and non-literally scripture meaning. What look literally is not literally. You believe dead is not really dead, but separate, but God can see those that separate other human that is alive. But human can’t see them that are separate. So to them it is dead. To God, it is separate.

      I became a Jehovah’s witness because I was searching for truth and God. I left the Jehovah’s witnesses because I was searching for truth and God. I found him at last! or rather he found me!

      So, do what we have is same as Adam? Adam ate the fruit and died, and we believe Jesus and live. So, Adam died because of his action. We live because of our belief. So, what we have is more simple than Adam.

      Not sure what you mean here. I just want to encourage you to re-examine what the JW’s have taught you. That is all I ask. If you still think they are right, then perhaps we should agree to disagree. However I will never stop praying for your salvation.

      God bless
      Jason

  10. I have answered your question above in bold text – God bless – Jason

Trackbacks

  1. What is Proper Church Discipline? by Jason Wright | Watchtower Investigated UK
  2. Jehovah’s Witnesses and Israel – From Literal to Spiritual by Jason Wright – Watchtower Investigated UK

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s

%d bloggers like this: